CCTV cameras

Google Groups
1

I understand that the matter has been discussed before I joined, and that
people have strong views on CCTV cameras. We’ve just moved to a new space
with new limitations and requirements (in particular that it’s in a larger
and emptier building, and that we’ve already had security concerns), and so
it would be helpful to have the discussion again

What would everyone’s view be of cameras recording the entrances/exits to
the Hackspace? For clarity, I’m only asking about your view of cameras
recording externally - there is no proposal or suggestion of filming people
while hacking.

2

Personally I don’t have a problem with external facing cameras for security
purposes. We would have to figure out what to do regarding recording and
storage of the footage from said cameras.

I would think we’d need at least three cameras, one outside the big metal
door, one in the fire escape staircase, and one in the common area (outside
the space, inside the unit) to get proper coverage.On 1 August 2016 at 16:48, Fahad Sadah fahadsadah@gmail.com wrote:

I understand that the matter has been discussed before I joined, and that
people have strong views on CCTV cameras. We’ve just moved to a new space
with new limitations and requirements (in particular that it’s in a larger
and emptier building, and that we’ve already had security concerns), and so
it would be helpful to have the discussion again

What would everyone’s view be of cameras recording the entrances/exits to
the Hackspace? For clarity, I’m only asking about your view of cameras
recording externally - there is no proposal or suggestion of filming people
while hacking.

–
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3

My personal opinion is that I would very much like to see cameras outside
the metal door, perhaps one above it capturing faces up close and one on
the wall behind, to see anyone attempting to force the locks or damage the
door. I don’t think I’ve ever been in the fire escape staircase so will
refrain from commenting on that until I have.

A proposal for the footage could be to keep it such that it’s only
accessible to the board, perhaps rsynced to a VPS, and automatically delete
it after 30 days.

4

Agreed - it might also be wise to have them only trigger for a recording to
be archived when a door is opened (with a 5min window before and after) and
store seven days of video locally to protect against the kind of attempts
similar to the occurrence this weekend. A small server could easily handle
it and be put somewhere hard to reach, and maybe a raspi somewhere covert
as a backup, on an air-gapped network would be nice.

An alarm that could text us if there was an unauthorised breach could be
useful, and could run off the same server via a simcard to useful parties.

Thanks,
ChrisOn Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Bob Clough bob@clough.me wrote:

Personally I don’t have a problem with external facing cameras for
security purposes. We would have to figure out what to do regarding
recording and storage of the footage from said cameras.

I would think we’d need at least three cameras, one outside the big metal
door, one in the fire escape staircase, and one in the common area (outside
the space, inside the unit) to get proper coverage.

On 1 August 2016 at 16:48, Fahad Sadah fahadsadah@gmail.com wrote:

I understand that the matter has been discussed before I joined, and that
people have strong views on CCTV cameras. We’ve just moved to a new space
with new limitations and requirements (in particular that it’s in a larger
and emptier building, and that we’ve already had security concerns), and so
it would be helpful to have the discussion again

What would everyone’s view be of cameras recording the entrances/exits to
the Hackspace? For clarity, I’m only asking about your view of cameras
recording externally - there is no proposal or suggestion of filming people
while hacking.

–
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Shibboleet - for XKCD 806 compliant organisations.

5

I’m not currently a member of HacMan, however I can input on external
cameras at Leeds Hackspace. We’ve had externally facing cameras for a while
and they have been useful for fun, but also practicality. We have had crime
happen to vehicles and property outside of Leeds Hackspace which we have
used to determine the time and actions of said activities, however the
recording quality has not been sufficient to be able to individually
identify someone for the purposes of legal action.

The footage is recorded based on movement that happens on the cameras, so
they are not recording unnecessarily. As far as I am aware, we have not
been legally requested to provide the footage by Police or otherwise. We
also have the cameras viewable from inside the Hackspace on a monitor.

Being a car driver whom has had my car broken into, it has been helpful for
me to be able to monitor my car, and in fact have ran out to chase off
people whom would further try to break into it. Though a camera isn’t
entirely a deterrent for this sort of thing, it’s more often a ‘use for
afterwards to prove it happened’ unless someone is actively watching it
(which we can do via video stream).

There are laws and legalities around how footage is stored, and where the
streams are available (where it’s possible to identify someone). These days
it’s also possible to use tools such as motion to purposefully hide license
plates, or people, etc. So it’s a question as to the purpose of said CCTV,
is it for crime prevention? Activity monitoring? Etc.

All in all, we have found it useful and in combination with motion
activated lighting, will likely take it along when we move Hackspace.On Monday, 1 August 2016 16:49:49 UTC+1, Fahad Sadah wrote:

I understand that the matter has been discussed before I joined, and that
people have strong views on CCTV cameras. We’ve just moved to a new space
with new limitations and requirements (in particular that it’s in a larger
and emptier building, and that we’ve already had security concerns), and so
it would be helpful to have the discussion again

What would everyone’s view be of cameras recording the entrances/exits to
the Hackspace? For clarity, I’m only asking about your view of cameras
recording externally - there is no proposal or suggestion of filming people
while hacking.

6

Agreed - it might also be wise to have them only trigger for a recording
to be archived when a door is opened (with a 5min window before and after)
and store seven days of video locally to protect against the kind of
attempts similar to the occurrence this weekend.

That wouldn’t have triggered yesterday, and wouldn’t trigger if someone
angle-ground a person-sized hole out of the door. Additionally, instances
where someone’s in that area and doesn’t go into the Hackspace are
recording-worthy - they could be someone lost, but could equally be someone
checking how easy our door is to open.

A small server could easily handle it and be put somewhere hard to reach,

and maybe a raspi somewhere covert as a backup, on an air-gapped network
would be nice.

An alarm that could text us if there was an unauthorised breach could be
useful, and could run off the same server via a simcard to useful parties.

Aren’t computers likely to be among the first things taken by a burglar? It
would be nice if any footage was also sent securely to a server off-site
only the board can access.

7

The aforementioned person might be going to their own unit… Although there’s only one unit built at the moment there intention is that there be 3 in total as well as ours.

tamarisk

p: 07949 151 100
e: tamarisk@tamarisk.it
t: @notquitehereOn 1 Aug 2016, at 17:10, Fahad Sadah fahadsadah@gmail.com wrote:

Agreed - it might also be wise to have them only trigger for a recording to be archived when a door is opened (with a 5min window before and after) and store seven days of video locally to protect against the kind of attempts similar to the occurrence this weekend.

That wouldn’t have triggered yesterday, and wouldn’t trigger if someone angle-ground a person-sized hole out of the door. Additionally, instances where someone’s in that area and doesn’t go into the Hackspace are recording-worthy - they could be someone lost, but could equally be someone checking how easy our door is to open.

A small server could easily handle it and be put somewhere hard to reach, and maybe a raspi somewhere covert as a backup, on an air-gapped network would be nice.

An alarm that could text us if there was an unauthorised breach could be useful, and could run off the same server via a simcard to useful parties.

Aren’t computers likely to be among the first things taken by a burglar? It would be nice if any footage was also sent securely to a server off-site only the board can access.

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8

I agree with Bob in that I’d like to see 3 external cameras
(maybe more from a different angle if someone is wearing a hoody)

  • One looking down over the main double doors from the top of the outside
    corridor wall
  • One looking out from the courtyard door
  • One covering the outside of the firedoor

Instead of triggering on the door opening, it’d be better to trigger on
some form of motion sensing

I noticed there’s an old alarm system that used to be wired up
(the control panel for it appears to be next to the door near to the main
stairs)
And I think there’s already a disconnected motion sensor looking down over
our double doors that we might be able to tap into with the land lords
permission
we could probably mount a camera right next to it

I’d recommend a cabled approach, maybe Power over Ethernet on an isolated
encrypted network (using Mac address port security if available) instead of
wireless
for security, and to avoid taking up the wifi bandwidth with video streaming
use security screws, or at least something difficult to undo as well when
mounting

Also for the recording destination I think should be in a safe or locked
box of some description (perhaps a small rpi with a usb hard disk)
for two reasons, 1. to make sure the data is secure for data protection
reasons, 2. in case someone tries to nick the recording rpi

There’s quite a lot of other fun things we could do, maybe sci-fi fancy
front panel with microphone / speakers and led backlights custom milled
or an edge colored logo like this one
http://hackaday.com/2015/11/17/full-color-edge-lit-laser-cut-acrylic/ with
the pacman logo
perhaps wire in a open source chat bot with text to speech so you can have
a conversation with the door, to try and convince it to open

Many Thanks
RicOn Monday, August 1, 2016 at 4:49:49 PM UTC+1, Fahad Sadah wrote:

I understand that the matter has been discussed before I joined, and that
people have strong views on CCTV cameras. We’ve just moved to a new space
with new limitations and requirements (in particular that it’s in a larger
and emptier building, and that we’ve already had security concerns), and so
it would be helpful to have the discussion again

What would everyone’s view be of cameras recording the entrances/exits to
the Hackspace? For clarity, I’m only asking about your view of cameras
recording externally - there is no proposal or suggestion of filming people
while hacking.

9

I have a 4 analogue channel DVR without a hard drive. The unit can be placed in the patch cabinet and attached to a VGA screen. I assume retention can be set at n days.

4 cameras recorded to hard drive. No network connection required.> On 1 Aug 2016, at 16:54, Bob Clough bob@clough.me wrote:

Personally I don’t have a problem with external facing cameras for security purposes. We would have to figure out what to do regarding recording and storage of the footage from said cameras.

I would think we’d need at least three cameras, one outside the big metal door, one in the fire escape staircase, and one in the common area (outside the space, inside the unit) to get proper coverage.

On 1 August 2016 at 16:48, Fahad Sadah fahadsadah@gmail.com wrote:
I understand that the matter has been discussed before I joined, and that people have strong views on CCTV cameras. We’ve just moved to a new space with new limitations and requirements (in particular that it’s in a larger and emptier building, and that we’ve already had security concerns), and so it would be helpful to have the discussion again

What would everyone’s view be of cameras recording the entrances/exits to the Hackspace? For clarity, I’m only asking about your view of cameras recording externally - there is no proposal or suggestion of filming people while hacking.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Hackspace Manchester” group.
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10

For clarification this unit is available for donation to the space.

tamarisk

p: 07949 151 100
e: tamarisk@tamarisk.it
t: @notquitehere> On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:55, Philip McGaw philip@mcgaw.eu wrote:

I have a 4 analogue channel DVR without a hard drive. The unit can be placed in the patch cabinet and attached to a VGA screen. I assume retention can be set at n days.

4 cameras recorded to hard drive. No network connection required.

Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Aug 2016, at 16:54, Bob Clough bob@clough.me wrote:

Personally I don’t have a problem with external facing cameras for security purposes. We would have to figure out what to do regarding recording and storage of the footage from said cameras.

I would think we’d need at least three cameras, one outside the big metal door, one in the fire escape staircase, and one in the common area (outside the space, inside the unit) to get proper coverage.

On 1 August 2016 at 16:48, Fahad Sadah fahadsadah@gmail.com wrote:
I understand that the matter has been discussed before I joined, and that people have strong views on CCTV cameras. We’ve just moved to a new space with new limitations and requirements (in particular that it’s in a larger and emptier building, and that we’ve already had security concerns), and so it would be helpful to have the discussion again

What would everyone’s view be of cameras recording the entrances/exits to the Hackspace? For clarity, I’m only asking about your view of cameras recording externally - there is no proposal or suggestion of filming people while hacking.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Hackspace Manchester” group.
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11

The aforementioned person might be going to their own unit… Although
there’s only one unit built at the moment there intention is that there be
3 in total as well as ours.

I hadn’t thought of that. I imagine that the future occupants of the other
units will appreciate having a bit more security

12

I suggest taking a look at ZoneMinder:

https://zoneminder.com/

Project seems to have been going years and may be the right fit here.

Will.On 1 Aug 2016, at 18:10, Fahad Sadah fahadsadah@gmail.com wrote:

Agreed - it might also be wise to have them only trigger for a recording to be archived when a door is opened (with a 5min window before and after) and store seven days of video locally to protect against the kind of attempts similar to the occurrence this weekend.

That wouldn’t have triggered yesterday, and wouldn’t trigger if someone angle-ground a person-sized hole out of the door. Additionally, instances where someone’s in that area and doesn’t go into the Hackspace are recording-worthy - they could be someone lost, but could equally be someone checking how easy our door is to open.

A small server could easily handle it and be put somewhere hard to reach, and maybe a raspi somewhere covert as a backup, on an air-gapped network would be nice.

An alarm that could text us if there was an unauthorised breach could be useful, and could run off the same server via a simcard to useful parties.

Aren’t computers likely to be among the first things taken by a burglar? It would be nice if any footage was also sent securely to a server off-site only the board can access.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Hackspace Manchester” group.
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13

Based on the existing level of security for the studio unit which is already there (practically none), I imagine the owner/renter would welcome some additional security. In fact, it will probably make the remaining units more attractive for prospective renters.From: hacman@googlegroups.com hacman@googlegroups.com on behalf of tamarisk Kay tamarisk@tamarisk.it
Sent: 01 August 2016 16:17
To: hacman@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [HACMan] CCTV cameras

The aforementioned person might be going to their own unit… Although there’s only one unit built at the moment there intention is that there be 3 in total as well as ours.

tamarisk

p: 07949 151 100
e: tamarisk@tamarisk.itmailto:tamarisk@tamarisk.it
t: @notquitehere

14

The existing unit is currently held by a hackspace member so I doubt he’s going to object.

Ditto future renters.

tamarisk

p: 07949 151 100
e: tamarisk@tamarisk.it
t: @notquitehere> On 2 Aug 2016, at 22:05, Paul Plowman madstunts@hotmail.com wrote:

Based on the existing level of security for the studio unit which is already there (practically none), I imagine the owner/renter would welcome some additional security. In fact, it will probably make the remaining units more attractive for prospective renters.

From: hacman@googlegroups.com hacman@googlegroups.com on behalf of tamarisk Kay tamarisk@tamarisk.it
Sent: 01 August 2016 16:17
To: hacman@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [HACMan] CCTV cameras

The aforementioned person might be going to their own unit… Although there’s only one unit built at the moment there intention is that there be 3 in total as well as ours.

tamarisk

–

p: 07949 151 100
e: tamarisk@tamarisk.it
t: @notquitehere

On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:10, Fahad Sadah fahadsadah@gmail.com wrote:

Agreed - it might also be wise to have them only trigger for a recording to be archived when a door is opened (with a 5min window before and after) and store seven days of video locally to protect against the kind of attempts similar to the occurrence this weekend.

That wouldn’t have triggered yesterday, and wouldn’t trigger if someone angle-ground a person-sized hole out of the door. Additionally, instances where someone’s in that area and doesn’t go into the Hackspace are recording-worthy - they could be someone lost, but could equally be someone checking how easy our door is to open.

A small server could easily handle it and be put somewhere hard to reach, and maybe a raspi somewhere covert as a backup, on an air-gapped network would be nice.

An alarm that could text us if there was an unauthorised breach could be useful, and could run off the same server via a simcard to useful parties.

Aren’t computers likely to be among the first things taken by a burglar? It would be nice if any footage was also sent securely to a server off-site only the board can access.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Hackspace Manchester” group.
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15

I was thinking four of something like these
http://www.tronicextreme.co.uk/dome-cameras/339-1000tvl-720p-cmos-sensor-dome-camera-gun-metal-grey-0620977744853.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwrIa9BRD5_dvqqazMrFESJACdv27GXyo8qh_jn3_NGhMMJgoMX72qaI2B6Wd6rm5JGGx6qRoCiHTw_wcB

Attached to a DVR.

Just needs coax and 12 for each camera. A cat 5 cable can be run in parallel to each location if desired.

However this as a solution is available more or less now and doesn’t need painted bright pink like a bike shed

The retention will be until the hard drive is full. The unit will not be network attached. So air gaped as such security is not an issue. The DVR can be stored behind a lock.

Is this a solution or do I need to let some one else choose a selection of colours?> On 1 Aug 2016, at 18:05, tamarisk Kay tamarisk@tamarisk.it wrote:

For clarification this unit is available for donation to the space.

tamarisk

–

p: 07949 151 100
e: tamarisk@tamarisk.it
t: @notquitehere

On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:55, Philip McGaw philip@mcgaw.eu wrote:

I have a 4 analogue channel DVR without a hard drive. The unit can be placed in the patch cabinet and attached to a VGA screen. I assume retention can be set at n days.

4 cameras recorded to hard drive. No network connection required.

Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Aug 2016, at 16:54, Bob Clough bob@clough.me wrote:

Personally I don’t have a problem with external facing cameras for security purposes. We would have to figure out what to do regarding recording and storage of the footage from said cameras.

I would think we’d need at least three cameras, one outside the big metal door, one in the fire escape staircase, and one in the common area (outside the space, inside the unit) to get proper coverage.

On 1 August 2016 at 16:48, Fahad Sadah fahadsadah@gmail.com wrote:
I understand that the matter has been discussed before I joined, and that people have strong views on CCTV cameras. We’ve just moved to a new space with new limitations and requirements (in particular that it’s in a larger and emptier building, and that we’ve already had security concerns), and so it would be helpful to have the discussion again

What would everyone’s view be of cameras recording the entrances/exits to the Hackspace? For clarity, I’m only asking about your view of cameras recording externally - there is no proposal or suggestion of filming people while hacking.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Hackspace Manchester” group.
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16

I like this solution (mainly for ease and speed tbh), and if we ever want
to attach those cameras to a computer later, I have a linux compatible
video PCI card that I think will work.

ChrisOn 3 Aug 2016 10:41 am, “Philip McGaw” philip@mcgaw.eu wrote:

I was thinking four of something like these

http://www.tronicextreme.co.uk/dome-cameras/339-1000tvl-720p-cmos-sensor-dome-camera-gun-metal-grey-0620977744853.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwrIa9BRD5_dvqqazMrFESJACdv27GXyo8qh_jn3_NGhMMJgoMX72qaI2B6Wd6rm5JGGx6qRoCiHTw_wcB

Attached to a DVR.

Just needs coax and 12 for each camera. A cat 5 cable can be run in
parallel to each location if desired.

However this as a solution is available more or less now and doesn’t need
painted bright pink like a bike shed

The retention will be until the hard drive is full. The unit will not be
network attached. So air gaped as such security is not an issue. The DVR
can be stored behind a lock.

Is this a solution or do I need to let some one else choose a selection of
colours?

Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Aug 2016, at 18:05, tamarisk Kay tamarisk@tamarisk.it wrote:

For clarification this unit is available for donation to the space.

tamarisk

–

p: 07949 151 100
e: tamarisk@tamarisk.it
t: @notquitehere

On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:55, Philip McGaw philip@mcgaw.eu wrote:

I have a 4 analogue channel DVR without a hard drive. The unit can be
placed in the patch cabinet and attached to a VGA screen. I assume
retention can be set at n days.

4 cameras recorded to hard drive. No network connection required.

Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Aug 2016, at 16:54, Bob Clough bob@clough.me wrote:

Personally I don’t have a problem with external facing cameras for
security purposes. We would have to figure out what to do regarding
recording and storage of the footage from said cameras.

I would think we’d need at least three cameras, one outside the big metal
door, one in the fire escape staircase, and one in the common area (outside
the space, inside the unit) to get proper coverage.

On 1 August 2016 at 16:48, Fahad Sadah fahadsadah@gmail.com wrote:

I understand that the matter has been discussed before I joined, and that
people have strong views on CCTV cameras. We’ve just moved to a new space
with new limitations and requirements (in particular that it’s in a larger
and emptier building, and that we’ve already had security concerns), and so
it would be helpful to have the discussion again

What would everyone’s view be of cameras recording the entrances/exits to
the Hackspace? For clarity, I’m only asking about your view of cameras
recording externally - there is no proposal or suggestion of filming people
while hacking.

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17

The magic box is now in the coms cabinet for those who want to look at it.

It plugs into a VGA monitor and requires a hard drive.

Looking at it quickly it seems to be able to do motion detection and only capture relevant frames.

I assume if you find something like a 40 GB hard drive the log rotation will be quite quick.

18

Hi guys,

Just bumping this following the Telegram messages about the gate and side door being left open.

To summarise what I’ve quickly read:

  • External cameras only, covering gate, fire escape, corridor
  • Perhaps triggered by motion or the gate opening
  • Footage kept locally, not connected to the internet, out of reach and deleted automatically.

Is this something the space still wants? And if so what can we do now?

19

https://www.maplin.co.uk/p/used-yale-pan-tilt-zoom-camera-b73rf